WHY HINDU GODS RESORT OF VIOLENCE

Sher Agrawal

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[gita-talk] Re: Why Hindu Gods Resort to Violence?

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sadhak_insight Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Reply-To: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
Respected Sirs,
I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving
person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human
beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like
peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world,
knowingly or unknowingly.

My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence
(killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills
Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva
Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other
religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent
of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along,
though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly
enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience
and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer
my son who debates with me often.

Pranams !
Iyer GA
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NEW POSTING

PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries
against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I
request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga.

Violence in Epics

Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from
spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social
perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna
or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are
visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the
actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an
acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into
conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to
help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, "I belong to an
erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war."
The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social
boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined
carefully.

I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again
carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to
encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them.

Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in
rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to
destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the
last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the
other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's
good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only
to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The
goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest
in saving any lives as such!

Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to
understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide
notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to
Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare
violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured
psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing
she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the
earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would
kill herself.

A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to
ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request
and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others
in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of
reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it
not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society
for the sake of social welfare?

Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages
everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade
a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas
for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the
Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire,
not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again,
the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On
contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave
any choice but to be removed?

Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his
baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband
for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He
unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing
him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia.
If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna
and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why
would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you
read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on
their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did
Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other
way other than killing him to rescue the people?

In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana,
Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their
deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead.
They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened
to be those.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

To be contd. …
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Dear Sadaks,
If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you
blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until
death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention
to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder.
But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder.
But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it
is called in Hinduism "Vadham", may mean termination. Like one`s leg
gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad
people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now
and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God
terminates.
In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask
Christians what it is.
When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of
peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they
started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving
like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10
Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says
Bible, killed almost all.
Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes
place killing people.
Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
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Narain Narain

My question is to Vineet Sarvottam.

Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ?
Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I
love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise
councelling..

Lallubhai Chirimar
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dear mr iyer

First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas,
Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18
upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This
is the series of study prescribed.

From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower
primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2,
then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for
PG.

Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower
primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the
head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is
formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus.
(Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we
are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all
our actions are on the reverse.

So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or
any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma.
It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are
born out of it only.

The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means,
object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa,
Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of
the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object
which is outside me, I should first study about myself.

Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think
of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad
qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that
those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never.

Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I
have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ?
With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration
I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose
wish my ears are able to hear...

Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two
ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk...

Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to
do karma.

That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad)
smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and
death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the
original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing.

regards
vijayan kiliyil

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Dear Iyer ji namaskar

Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not
possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the
benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there
are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you
have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an
ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to
use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem.
You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army
gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality
there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing
of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has
to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL
intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you
have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population
to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain
harmony and peace.

No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God
fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a
noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims
received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its
powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most
of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on
one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy
methods.

There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for
voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non
voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the
almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that
supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in
this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals
accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation
authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a
person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through
dialogue and pecefully things are settled.

To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study
the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater
than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used
voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain
something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at
the end you will find that all had a different missions and people
with different powers to deal with.

If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be
defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with
him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with
voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can
satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in
real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/
maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one
day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via
voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating
eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their
respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used
them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it
the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are
born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted
differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over
Evil on this globe.

With regards
Love and knowledge!
Dalip Langoo

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1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the
judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate
to our own psychological processes. this has been understood
recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG
jungs analytical psychology.
2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is
a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being
non-violent and gandhi is one example of this.

most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are
related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and
islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any
other pagan tradition

please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins

Ravi Bakhsi
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Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti-
Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask
whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their
faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and
whether we should advise against such depictions.

It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey
to the mechanisations of others.

When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How
Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice.
Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods.
It is none one else's concern.

Sampuran sINGH

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PRIOR POSTING
Dear Shri Iyer:

Namaskaram with respects.

Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes
a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and
violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a
criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not
himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely
explained in Mahabharat at several places.

To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme
ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an
ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king.
Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How
would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's
ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It
failed against others.

Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus
themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other
systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers
have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic
arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction
in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little
more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has
almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not
out of spite or anger.

Hope this is useful,

Sanjay Agarawal

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Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time.
During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling
us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence –
`look at the pictures of your gods!', they say.

The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me.

1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the
work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom
of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally
granted them.

Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint
pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses
carrying weapons.

But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions.

2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of
Muhammed.

Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering
pose.

3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through
revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is
somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic
stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life-
history' of the concerned figures and their teachings.

4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was
unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the
process. That is their belief.

Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural
powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated
with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms.

Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are
liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer
resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal
benevolent peaceful form.

Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and
auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore
righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is
threatened.

5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on
what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions
of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non-
aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even
of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere –
Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other
faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations
and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc.,
almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races.

Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti-
Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask
whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their
faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and
whether we should advise against such depictions.

Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade
those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities?

Time to reflect.

Girdhari

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Namaste Sadhakas..

Sumangal Suprabhat...

As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one
God "Parmatma".
All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are
its "Ansha" who took birth as Human being to taught us
about "Dharma" & to spread "Peace & Love".

Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is
controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and
troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being &
to keep Peace in the world.

Example :
If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will
do..??
You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain
good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others.

Thanks

Satish Pawaskar
Keep Smiling Always ;-)
India
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God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one
has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes
angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get
angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God.
Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi).

When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get
Aananda.

Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi).
Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The
praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes
thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the
God gave him the Moksha.

regards
vijayan kiliyil

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Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud.

They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after
many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are
provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these.
Regards
Shiban Raina

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Dear Shri Iyer,

Please refer to your mail of November 10/11.

You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but
in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu
faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from
this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu
generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base.

Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing
violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays
ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma
(God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on
human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among
Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative
faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu
representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing
the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one
hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only
symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the
righteous ones. The message is concretized in the
Geeta, "Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma
sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge," (From time to time, I
appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the
evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness
or rule of law).

In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells
Yudhishthir, "The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect
his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It
means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen
vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending
services, doing government or private job, without let or
hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering
justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make
provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take
good care of those who help the destitute" Such lessons of Hindu
scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the
country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence
and non-violence is irrelevant.

Yours sincerely,
Ram Gopal
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-Shree Hari-

There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict,
the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread.
Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some
insights to other bronze age traditions.
Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories
of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic
events.
I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient
sagas
of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work.
Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the
Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as
to why.
Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written
by
an Christian medieval female mystic ).
"The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our
tender
Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast......."
(Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ).
When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know),
Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary,
and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The
supreme GOD).
You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is
retuning, I pray She is).
I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.?
The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and
Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his
consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in
their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started.
So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male
dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the
millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede
Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic.
Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of
his past lives.
Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or
any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a
warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what
would they think.
A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only
the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare.
Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's
inner self.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike Keenor
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Respected Sir,
It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is
that "a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars"
as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there
seems to be a connection, am I not correct?

Barin Chatterjee
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In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is
practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians
believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone
else can practice.

To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and
understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god.
There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the
things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really
non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one
got killed and there was no war ever etc.

I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations /
perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe
in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not
a God. He is the "Son of God" or the Messiah. Per Christians God
never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so
there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu
perception.

Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from
Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own
weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the
memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received
extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world,
forcing British out of India.

In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his
disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first
learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This
is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded
upon.

Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means
not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However,
fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can
not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace
a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent
a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be
avoided.
Anand Awasthi

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PRIOR POSTING

If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to
cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to
prevent rest of the body.
World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are
parts of it.
Things become clear when you think from God's point of view.
Thanks
Raja Gurdasani
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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: "who can kill who", as all is
immortal/imperishable!
I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know,
because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking
such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp
such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this
stage in son's life!
My short answer is: "when one inquires into deeper meanings of God,
Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods
etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this
get answered in the satisfactory way". Now I would teach my son
these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up!
In my experience the best answer to one's question is the
disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding
question, as J Krishnamurti used to say "Please see that the answer
is in the question".
Namaskar.....
Pratap Bhatt
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Hari Om

'Violence' is a relative term.

Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties
of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans
have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes
them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in
conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can
only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges
into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out'
the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so
shall you reap..

In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from
darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is
only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------
Namaste,

Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where
things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the
context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently
when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is
necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might
be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary
for cutting vegetables etc.
The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only
half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva
cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma.
Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that
prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be
judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence.

Hope this helps.
Shubhamastu
Anuradha Choudry
----------------------------------------------------------

Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they
opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay
but authorized to teach.

The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this
universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind.

Manoj Padhi
----------------------------------------------------------
fellow sadhakaas,

namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our
prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't
defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra
or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements.

Hari Om
Vishnu Dada
(Vishnu Patel)

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God.
They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings,
irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to
merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and
the other is not is an exercise in futility.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Iyer,

Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to
supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to
ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the
destruction of evil.

Anil Jain

----------------------------------------------------------
Jai Hanuman

Where is the question of some one "killing" another, when everyone
is "immortal/imperishable" as a law ?

Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this
question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !!

'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !!

Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one
Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference
to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned
and anxious by the question, Jee !

Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ?

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
----------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------
1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic /
greek gods.
they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own
psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the
west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical
psychology.
2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is
a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-
violent and gandhi is one example of this.

Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these
days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity
and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or
any other pagan tradition.
please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great
understanding.

Ravi Bakhsi
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Iyer,
Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat
vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and
dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which
means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for
your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What
makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you
breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth.
Let me put it to you that without a section of the population
taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society,
others do not have the luxury of being non-violent.

hope this helps
Prashanth Thirukkonda
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear spiritual brothers and sisters,
Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non
Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is
our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and
powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book
of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can
read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for
our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving
mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but
gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and
start spreading social, moral and physical evils.

Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal
God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different
names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are
extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent
and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are
observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu
Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of
the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment
is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes
virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty.

Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a
general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He
wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically
strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self
destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his
Biography "My Experiment With Truth".

None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence
but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave
conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people
(Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature
and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is
taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis.

with kind regards,
Prem Sabhlok

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one
has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion
and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house
and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes,
a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than
an answer. So be it !

Vineet Sarvottam

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak,

According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the
awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and
action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ???
Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so
called "harmful being" according to us? What do you say about - Hang
till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so
called justice orders?

All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep
inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only.
Do we not need to "kill" our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of
our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who
gives power to kill those bad qualities within ?

Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita
Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama
"I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength"

Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our
good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be
blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her
sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately
merging them all in Her own Divine Love.

Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire
universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases
easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not
even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how
merciful is He.

We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The
Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate
deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the
duality of this world.

Krishna says- "I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the
witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the
creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting
place and the eternal seed." Gitaji Ch 9:18

He is All then who is killing whom ?

We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the
Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we
have to "BE" peace, love and bliss. There is no other way.

There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that
ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality,
beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son
wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read
Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back
and answer your own question.

With lots of Love,
A sadhika
Sadhna Karigar

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir,

We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its
message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non-
violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No.
any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed
is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure
intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as
violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood,
misinterpreted and misused now a days.

When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the
act originates out of Love.
The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil
could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil
or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to
remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story
of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even
those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and
opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the
suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation
was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It
is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it
requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand.
Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to
destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not
resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart.
for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing
themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of
grace.

We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do
nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity
after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was
crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for
our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified
while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share
his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be
loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight
our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the
mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect
them to suffer for you.

I request you to not use such words "hindu gods lose patience". this
thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is
only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent.
What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so
called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how,
when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god
we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom
would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace.

sai ram
Abhimanyu Kaul

----------------------------------------------------------
Sadaks
With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had
i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy
as India found out with China.

We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to
live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo
dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper
statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste
and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for
dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE
ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence
is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to
defend this is the message.

Jayesh A Patel
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING
dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in
Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to
destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be
one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not
mean not to resist evil. thanks.

ck kaul
----------------------------------------------------------

II SHRI HARI II

Respected Shri Iyer Ji,

One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their
respective capacity.

Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence
(Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu
scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures
say "Ahinsa Param Dharmo" (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of
religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence
whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures
carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in
the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus).

In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only
these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three
crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In
other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are
said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the
teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can
count the origination and time for the others.

First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and
numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees
(Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion
for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi
Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas
(devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is
same i.e. attainment of God.

Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door
Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik
Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and
Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at
the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God
Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints
do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore,
Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the
Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap)
to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas).
Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus
feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also
requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik
Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and
Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord
Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar).
And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu).

Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's
Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took
incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his
brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were
killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth
as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna
took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra
and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna
and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham
(abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is
called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which
the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for.

For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various
reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes
incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas).
Ram Charit Manas states "RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK
TE EKA". You can understand these only by participating in the
Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy
scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran,
Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and
even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa
and so on.

Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and
Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our
Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to
Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones
(Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from
demolition.

Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No
other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures.
There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and
enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply
enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT
HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA". The Gatha
(Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not
known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One
who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can
men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know
his Katha.

Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or
misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you
will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge.

May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts!

Shubham Astu,
RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA
----------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for forwarding this letter.
I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to
protect non-violence.
Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence.
Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war?
Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are
not Saints.
Lovingly
Dr.Uday Pai

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir:

Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to "violence" so that Hindu people stay
peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out,
the staunches non-violent person.

While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people
of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be
observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers
of a "peaceful" Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is
an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their
followers ??

(Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is
full of violence. "Slay the idolators, destroy the idols" , "leave
no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive" to paraphrase
some of the writings.)

Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence.
There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the
terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be
handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a
terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people
is the only language he will listen to.

So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek
justice. And Dharma requires this.

Dilip Bhagat
----------------------------------------------------------
Hare Ram Hare Krishna

Dear Sir, Pranam

If your question has arisen out of a thirst to
understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put
my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of
malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you
to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine
Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God.

According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the
ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common
sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she
can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His
duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to
maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself
has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who
had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in
the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and
in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord
Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita
is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil
have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is
all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and
Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as
evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6
rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it
as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in
puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to
rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you
that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence.

Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of
peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to
protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the
hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my
perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in
the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations.
It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna
is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals.
He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful
to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per
his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and
pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive
mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our
good thoughts and deeds.

Hare Ram Hare Krishna
SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadak,
The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar.
Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The
demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas.
Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama
+ Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler
of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can
also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows
were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its
nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also
purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar
was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas
in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave
Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through
Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts.

B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------
Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand
with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper
hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil
even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the
lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and
give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan?
Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------
I don't think there should be so much concern about "Hindu" "Gods".
The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to
characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists
will agree that it started with the "Satem/hatem" divide in the IE
languages, and the "hatem" group residing outside the geopolitical
context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu
was a part of the "Mahabharatm" of Krishna and not the whole. The
Arabs do mention "Hind-va-Sind" in the 7-8th century chronicles,
thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere "Sindhu".
But no "Hindu" inscriptions use the term until 15th century.

There are also many "Gods". Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does
not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this
is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by
introducing "past life karma", something obviously unverifiable by
the
majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered
omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for
this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to
perform the rites of initiation ("Bodhana") of Chandi/Durga - the
same
rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory
over Ravana. Ravana was the best "Brahmin" available (what happened
to
"caste" - the same "caste" which has even found its way into the Gita
as something whose breakdown by the "women" and others leads to
eventual destruction of "civilization" and "dharma" - the Asura clan
Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a
Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one
"Sandhya" and was unfit as a "yagnik" (lets not go into the actual
reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on
possible motivations even in this fountainhead of "Brahmanya"
revelation).
The "Gods" and the "Asuras" both derived from the same "father", and
to start with they were not even "immortal". They had to coopt the
asura "siblings" to extract "amrita" and then needed Vishnu to cheat
them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of
mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes
convenient then later to invent "bad past Karma" to justify such
unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and
were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled
on the "aristocracy" of the time) the common historical behaviour of
elite ruling class.
The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a
proper
analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the
Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political
society and individual's relation with that of the state and the
social group. These have little to do with the "Gods" - Gods have
minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita.
Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so
much importance.

The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern
science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the
world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to
be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous
requestioning ("Charaibeti"). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited
out of their obvious later "priestly opportunistic addition" of
support of unfair and unauthentic practices like "hereditary and
for-life varna" gives the guiding principle for social interaction
and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood
embodied in this ideal of Krishna. "Gods" are not the primary
messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested
priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in
real terms.

"dikgajone"
----------------------------------------------------------
Sir,
To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and
AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura
(demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects
in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is
always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to
understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is
Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch
between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a
task.

"apb1942"

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PRIOR POSTING
Dear sadaks,
First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc.
Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to
Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of
human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act
to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by
some that it looks like violence.

Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents,
Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went
on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came
to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In
defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this
killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates
and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna
never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan
was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as
messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands.
Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he
failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as
Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to
be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth.
Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct
and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became
alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today
think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war
again knowing that he will be killed.
So also other Gods did.
Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30
became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type
of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge
that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When
Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non
Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus'
wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound.
This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit.
Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only.

Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur,
was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri
Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri
Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of
Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave
Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda.
Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with
108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born.
Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as
Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are
tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them.
Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ.
B.Sathyanarayan
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Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with
preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds,
because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind.

Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the
literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of
these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to
control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity

"mvssr75"
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-Shree Hari-

Dear Iyer GA,
What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things
with you and visa versa.
A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in
wholesale slaughter and genocide.
When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste
for violence is lost.
I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks.
I think this is a very interesting question.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike Keenor
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VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA
(Duty) to restore DHARMA

Dear Iyer,

Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back
what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them
to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not
belong to you, it will be disaster.

Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him
(Nature).

Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of
afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on
parliament?

Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself
will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by
any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again.

Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma
(righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu
Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called "shourya"
Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets
come from other side and may hit your chest.

So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use
force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else
country will be weak and no place for Dharma.

Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save
the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother.

Non-violence should be practised but not at all times.

HARI OM TATH SATH

shiva Kumar shapur
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Dear Shri Ayer,
I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am
a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including
Mahishmardani.
Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like
Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the
dance pose.
Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all
the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight
between the God and the devil.
So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the
righteousness.
With best wishes.
Shridhar Pant
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Shreemanji,

There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and
haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all
these years ?????

Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other
Gods ?

Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or
dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will
discover the answer yourself.

Pranam

Sampuran Singh
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