IS IT GOD OR WE OURSELVES WHO ACT OUR EACH ACTION

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;
In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being
destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now I
am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the
same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.
I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the
universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our
karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have
accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous
births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that
tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the good
of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we ourselves
are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you
pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your will
to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth
thus changing your destiny for the better.

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

Sher Agrawal

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[gita-talk] Re: How is Man independent in performing actions ?

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sadhak_insight Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:54 AM
Reply-To: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
Narayana Narayana

In English

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will
(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

Ramchandra

In Hindi
Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam
karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

Ramchandra

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NEW POSTING

Hari Om

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be
reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

"that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not
happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That
is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any
distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which
was apart from His will)" ??? How what does not happen is our
desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

Please clarify.

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

"In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not
independent"

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction
from us. No doing can be forced.

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji
writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.
It snatches away capacity of human being of "karmanye
vaadhikaraste" ! God does not like us to attribute our independence
of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain
without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you
are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.
He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap
as we sow ! Even if you are totally "surrendered" soul or even if
you are "liberated"- "in doing" you have complete independence so
long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak
stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,
because God willed that". That deed can be any deed - why not?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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Dear all,
Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should
do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually
good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if
we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.
A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists
from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also
allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.
Jai Shree Krishna!
Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

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Dear Sadaks,
We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it
says "Aham Bramasmi". You are part of Braman and have the
indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence
over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in
rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,
train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or
ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor
ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.
Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that
robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his
family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.
Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why
Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though
there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru
to rescue.
" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan" - I feel that this
means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant
to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver
of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.
Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor
of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer
which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva
destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and
aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand
is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred
ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.
Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.
This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no
intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything
independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the
animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son
revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.
So I feel that, "HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT
OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION"." Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu
kadchan"
PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG
B.Sathyanarayan

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PRIOR POSTING
Shree Hari
Ram Ram

In English

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response
is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it
will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,
and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from
Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again
we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

Vineet, Sarvottam

IN HINDI
Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi
usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse
aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi
Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari
(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye
usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

Vineet, Sarvottam

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Jai Hanuman

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not
read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt
whatsoever in a person "not having a free will/independence in
performing an action" ! One always has a free will there !! Come
what may !!!

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there "being any kind of
free will or independence in the results of an action" made by a
person - come what may !!

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always
beyond your hands !

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They
appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined
by the "doer" ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long
term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that
reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way
you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever
position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that "karmanusarini
buddhih" ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,
I also know that "Purushartha" (capacity of humans to do karmas-
free will / independence ) prevails over waves of "sphuranas" (
thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered
intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi" ( What is
not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same
time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
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PRIOR POSTING
Hari Om

Not a leaf "moves" is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.
What is stated is that "not a leaf moves". It is not stated that "no
effort to move a leaf" is possible by a human being. Question of
free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence
you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent
in that. After you do your karma say to "move the leaf" , whether
the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan" -
you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in
consequential results !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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Priy pratap ji
you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.
Raja Gurdasani
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namasthe all,

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever
it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME
divinity.
Regards,
Bharathi

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PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one
takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification
provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's
roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform
on which "individuality" in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes
constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her
life. This is what he/she calls "I" or "me", and thus 'mineness" is
born. ("Mineness" is born only after "me" is born first).

When one such a one acts, it is only this "me", disguised as
desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect "imagined
him/her" or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting
to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true
independence to act.

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever
means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of "me" in
its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to
protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we
truly
are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of "me"!

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not
personal.

Such a one can truly say "Let Thy Will be done" as Jesus said. When a
leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is
God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

Namaskar........

Pratap Bhatt
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What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will
become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.
The
goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for
the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh
or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.
Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first
connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,
then
to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not
everything is pre-ordained.

Hari Shanker Deo
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Dear Sadhaks,
It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has
created and
designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS
knowledge is
the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an
example can be
given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras
(which can
be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or
action or both
are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by
the one`s own
Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is
called Kayaka
Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one
forgets the Eswara
Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one
does good or
bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go
unrewarded.
This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it
means that
nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to
come to Human
form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given
independence to do
Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by
Bhagavan to
elevate to Divinity
B.Sathyanarayan

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