WHY THE WORLD IS A DUKHALAYA?

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:43 AM, agrasen wrote:

Jai Shri Sitaramjiki, Jai Sri Radhakrishnjiki, Jai Veer Hanuman.

My earlier question on Swamiji's suggestion that even though we must treat everyone equally but we can't treat a dog the same, my question was figuratively put, i.e. it is not the question of a dog, cow or another not so good a person, but everyone must be treated by us equanimously with respect and according to their need, without minding any of their bad behaviour, etc. and therefore we should see Vasudev in everyone irrespective of their yoni or conduct.

Referring to Shri Vyasji's response concerning the world, no doubt it is a dukhalaya; God or whoever the power made us all, has left us in a sea of temptations and said keep the end of your shirt dry, don't let it get wet in the water of temptations. The religion says time and again: avoid all temptations while in this world and work for the next life, be honest, diligent, pray, do not have any attachment to anything or anyone. Perhaps all these conditions are more hard to follow fully in order to get moksha and solace in the life hereafter while facing the hardships in this world.

The question no doubt remains why God made the worldly life so full of temptations, leading to sorrows; why could there not be a middle path or an easier path to follow while living in this world and to get moksha or a better life in the hereafter as well. No doubt, the maker of this world had all the power to make things the way he wanted them to be. Right now it is mostly a DUKHALAYA; yehan khushiyan hain kam; beshumar hain gam; and on top of that the fear of the life hereafter. Why Why Why!

JAI SHRI SITARAMJIKI, JAI SHRI RADHAKRISHNJIKI, JAI VEER HANUMAN.

SHER SINGH AGRAWAL


On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:47 AM, sadhak_insight wrote:



Divine Sadhaks

My Q is - Why the world has been made as 'Dukhalayam' ( Abode/Home of Sorrows) by Paramatma ?

Vyas N B

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Date: Wed May 19, 2010 7:30 am

Dear All, Vyas ji in particular, Namaskar!I have gone through Vyas Ji few posts in the past which have been usually quite

informative. But, I wonder on his this simple question!!The fact is that Parmatma has not made anything (no creator & creation business,no duality) but Parmatma is by itself anything and everything within

manifestation and beyond. Therefore, in view that Adatava philosophy whatever weconceive, feel and imagine are just properties of Parmatma as said by LordKrishna in Chap. 10 and shown in Chap. 11. All that & everything is governed by

tool known as Individualistic Mind (Individual Consciousness) which is the basefor feeling of Dukh or Sukh as some of the Sadaks too have also pointed out.If the question exactly meant why the world is made, still above answer would

fit in. The other answer could be that it is just a play of Parmatma!! It is only HE which may be named as Parmatma, God, Ram, Krishen, Allah.....soon and so forth. Just my view! Namaskar to conclude

K.K.KAUL
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Date: Wed May 19, 2010 6:35 am
Jai Shree Krishna

Almost all sadhaks are surprisingly unanimous that this world is not MADE 'Dukhalayam' by Paramatma. Wrong ! If that is so, why Gita has defined the world to be dukhalayam? Has Gita not done so? Why there are verses like 13:8 or 14:20 ? Why there is ALWAYS a requirement for every Yogi including Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogi to get DISCONNECTED from the world? That your outlook makes it to be sukhalayam or dukhalayam is wrong answer ! IT IS DUKHALAYAM and so DELIBERATELY made by PARAMATMA Himself !! Sadhaks should go deeper and find out reasons as to why this world is made so !

Narain ! Narain !!

Rajendra J Bohra
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Date: Wed May 19, 2010 5:30 am
Dear Sir,

The Sorrow and Joy lies in the beholder's mind.

I would invite your kind attention at this very moment when somebody is dying in agony on the deathbed, whereas a beautiful child is just entering this world taking birth, a bride is taking wedding oath with her bridegroom in the presence of holy Agni.

A flower is getting crushed under somebody's feet, at the same time somewhere a bud is blosoming to flower.

Hitesh Mody.


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Date: Wed May 19, 2010 2:56 am
Hari Om

This refers to query of Sadhak Agrasen. You can't apply equality among say a dog, a cow and a human. That is not real equality. You have to look at the essence and establish equanimity there not at gross level. You can drink milk of cow but not that of a bitch under the garb of Vasudev Sarvam. Scriptures do not guide you to apply concept of Vasudev Sarvam that casually. It is a unique /special sadhana...the ultimate one...coming to you effortlessly upon certain states as an experience ! In the meantime, You have power of discrimination (Viveka) exclusively given to you in this human life. You must discriminate ! Vasudev Sarvam concept does not get vitiated when you appropriately and differently deal with various people/creatures based on merit. Vasudev Sarvam has to be realised at inner/essence level not at outer/ gross level. For example, you should think that poison is made by Vasudev only...in fact Vasudev resides in it, upto here it is OK, BUT at the same time you should not consume it !!

This world, Divine Sadhaks, has been DELIBERATELY and SPECIFICALLY made by Paramatma with particular characteristics. When sent into this world, there is a special grace of Paramatma on you. You are given weapon of discrimination with you and INBUILT desires in you of 1 To do something 2 To know something and 3 To get something. We MUST know/investigate / think / deliberate as to :

1 Why we are here?

2 Why this world has been made as Dukhalayam?

3 What we should do/know/get ?

Read BG 9:33- Anityam Asukham Lokam Imam Praapya.... ! Here Lord confirms...Yes, Yes... ! I have dropped you in this temporary /perishable/everchanging and PLEASURELESS /Sorrowful world....now .... ??

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Date: Wed May 19, 2010 12:19 am
The human mind is programmed. One is enjoying only in contrast to pain. One is not aware that one is bound.
Awareness of the bondage is the end of the bondage.
we feel positive in pleasure, this makes us feel negative in sorrow.
But why sorrow should come?
To tell only that there is nothing positive in pleasure.
Mind is frittering away its energy on its home made idea that 'it should be happy'.
Leaving the comfort of this 'should be' gives clarity and intensity of action.
Now one is open the mystery of Existence.
Y V Chawla
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Tue May 18, 2010 10:55 pm
Jai Hanuman

The Question reminds me of an immortal bhajan of modern time Genius poet: Kavi Pradeep. Note here the prayer to Paramatma in the last lines. Oh ! What a way these poets find to live Gita 13:8 (Dukh doshanu darshanam) :-

HAMNE JAG KI AJAB TASVEER DEKHI, EK HANSATA HAI DUS ROTE HAIN !

I have seen a strange phenomena (picture) about this world. Here as against one laughing , ten are crying !!

HAME HANSATE MUKHADE CHAAR MILE ! DUKHIYAARE CHEHARE HAZAAR MILE !!

HAMNE GIN GIN HAR TAQDEER DEKHI ...EK HANSATA HAI DUS ROTE HAIN !

I found too few laughing faces in this world but saw uncountable crying and sorrowful faces. I checked with each and every one's fate...!

DO EK SUHKI YAHAN LAAKHON MAIN ! AANSOO HAIN KARODON AANKHON MAIN !!

HAMNE DEKHE MAHAL AUR KUTEER DAIKHI ...EK HANSATA HAI DUS ROTE HAIN !

Only one or two among millions are found by me to be happy. I found tears in the eyes of milions and trillions. I saw palaces as well as huts...everywhere the story is same.

KUCHH BOL PRABHU YEH KYAA MAAYA ! TERA BHED SAMAJH MAIN NAA AAYA ... EK HANSATA HAI DUS ROTE HAIN !

O Prabhu ! Tell us as to what is this Maya !! We have not understood the secret behind you (for creating this world like this)....!

So that appears to be the foundation of this Question. Indeed even Lord Rama had similar observations in Yoga Vashishtha ! What do you say Brother Mike ? Does not Yoga Vashishtha start with such emotions only?

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 9:56 pm
Hari Om

Thanks Divine Sadhaks for beautiful responses to my Question. I would like to elucidate re my question. At the outset, it is not that God has no role in creating the world as IT IS viz making it as Dukhalayam and Ashashwatham. He always had liberty available of not making it as perishable, ever changing and ever destroying. Is His own Loka as defined in BG 15:6 like this world ? No ! Not all. Is the world defined in BG 9:19/20 like this world ? No...not as brutal as this. THEN why this world is made like this?

This world begins with sorrows and ends in sorrows. Pleasures are merely temporary respites from sorrows. ABSENCE OF SORROW is called pleasure in this world. The tiredness arising out of inability to consume further the worldly bhogas is called SUKHA- as a law in this world. It is not that this world is made neutral, else why it would be perishable, asat, mithya and transient ? Why Gita would advice us all to develop a habit of seeing sorrows in this world (BG 13:8) ? Why Gita would define this world as Dukhalayam ? Why ever there would be a need for renunciation?
Why terms as Compassion, Charity, Sarva Bhoot Hite Rataa, ... would be there at the outset ? From which angle, the world is not Dukhalayam or is Sukhalayam or is depending upon your personal outlook/attitude towards it ? From no angle in fact !! It is not that the character of world changes by your getting equanimous or desireless or Godly !!! You change in that case, not the Dukhalayam called world ! My Q is regarding the world !!!

WHY ? Why disconnection starts from every connection which we make, from the very moment of connection itself ? Why there is NITYA VIYOG with world ? Has anybody been spared from sorrows in this world ? WHY this exceptionless treatment ? Be it Sudama or Sita; Kunti or Arjuna; Raam or Rahim ; Harishchandra or Gandhi....who has not faced sorrows ? Can any one point out a single person who has never faced sorrows during human life ? WHY ? If everybody MUST face sorrows as a law...then that is not out of anybody's choice or way of looking but because of the very structure of the world necessitating the same.

And the world as it is, is definitely made by God (BG 9:7/8/9/10) !

Hence my Question again, Divine Sadhaks : Why God has made this world as Dukhalayam?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:22 PM
Shree Paramatmane Namah
Thank you Sushilji. It is all the acceptance of the mind. If mind is well, then there is Ganga in the bowl!!! (kathouti). So be it!
Vineet,
Sadhak

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Date: aum

joy, joy, joy .......................... mike jee ................. the deepest wisdom of the wise ....................

now flowing through Mike jee's pen !

blessed are you ...........

blessed your joyous sharing in the Love for the Beloved !


ah, Beloved ................

will you allow the wisdom to touch your heart

to touch your being; to become your being this once ............. this moment Now !

This Moment Now .............this once !!!

and all the sorrows cease !!!!

yes ...............?

AUM


narinder bhandari


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Tue May 18, 2010 1:38 pm
It is a magical world. The world is how you look at it. If you look at it as home of sorrows, it becomes that. If you look at it as a wonderful world, it becomes wonderful.


It is all in the mind.......in your thoughts......home of sorrows...or Heaven....
Change your thoughts.......change your world.....to heaven...now...

Experiment, experience, enjoy....live in happiness......

Note: be patient, give it some time....results are guaranteed......
Sushil Jain


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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:54 AM
Jai Shri Hari,
As long as the Jeeva (i.e. embodied soul) has an assumed attachment/SANG with the modes (goodness, passion, ignorance) of the changing one (i.e. nature/PRAKRRITI), the oscillations of the SUKH/Joy and DUKH/Sorrow can not be avoided. The result of attachment/SANG (which is the main quality of the RAJOGUNA) is nothing but DUKH (RAJASASTU PHALAM DUKHAM - GitaJi 14/16). The Supreme does not have anything to do with the SUKH and DUKH the Jeeva is entertaining since eternity and therefore he does not create the "DUKHALAYA". He, being omniscient and the supreme well wisher of all, ONLY facilitates the environment/WORLD to fulfill the supreme demand of the Jeevas struggling to come out of the illusion. Upon realization of the TRUTH, it does not matter whether the Jeeva is on this plane or any other (including hell), It (i.e. Jeeva) always remains with the supreme bliss though he may appear as a normal jeeva.

Thanks & Regards
Niteesh Dubey
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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 11:10 am
Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear brother Mikeji,

Pls. forgive me for my lack of knowledge but in my humble opinion, am not able to see any connection of your response to the question raised by Mr., Vyasji, even though you have provided good information!

It is possible that in these type of situations, Gita-talk moderators may not be sure whether they should post the responses? The fear may be that if not posted, sometimes the Sadhkas could drop out and not respond in future which is not healthy for the Forum.

I would like to reiterate a friendly constructive suggestion to all the Sadhkas to kindly focus the responses which directly relate with the question at hand.

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,


Madan Kaura
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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 9:38 am

Dear Pratap Bhatt-ji. I am not competent to respond to your posting. I am grateful for your appreciation. Different people see the same thing differently. One person has of necessity to see the same thing as different at different ppoint of time. When I look at my body being well or unwell, I am not always thinking about a particular part of the body. I have headache: this may be due to some problem arising first with my stomach or my inner system fighting against an attack of a virus / germ somewhere in the body, may be nose. At some other time I am seeing things differently: when my leg has a pain my hands massage with ointment: hands and legs are seen by me as different. But I am in full knowledge that the body is an integrated whole and living that is the superior existence than living as just a leg or a hand. Similarly, I know that the dog and I are part of an integrated existence that the whole Creation is, yet when the dog attacks me to bite I respond with violence to save myself. At that point I live two separate existences: one of a dog and one of a human being, but I know for sure that just like the millions of cells in the body live an integrated human or dog's body, I anfd a dog are integral part of the entire Creation. It is when I start living an unified existence, I do not anymore fear of the dog biting me and my body getting killed and losing life due to dog-bite infection. Because I know that I continue to live as part of the unified one single existence of Creation: what I thought as a separe I with a body and life has transformed in to some differennt things and continue to remain in the Creation. So, I know if I am able to live the existence as a Single unified entity as the entire Creation including the Creator is, I know more have to see and distinguish separate smaller entities. Unfortunately, I do not yet live like that. But would always cherish that oneday I will live like that merged into the unified existence. Then, only I will have no ego, no desire, no connection with what the senses, intellect and mind do and hence no disaapiontment of expectation of satisfaction from sensual pleasure.
Basudeb Sen
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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 7:13 am

Hari Om,

With due apologies.I do understand that such a question has been deliberately raised to generate discussion, but many human beings do believe so. The truth is that such a perception arises out of ignorance and attachment. On the one hand we are still in darkness not having understood the reality while at the same time we are attached to material things, which tend to provide momentary pleasure and lasting pain. The day we are succeed in sheding our ignorance and understand the reality, we will be free from the pair of opposites; there will be no pleasure, so no pain; no dukhalya no sukhalya. When be become Nirmoh and Nishkam we will experience only bliss.

Hari Om

Shivkumar

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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 3:35 am
Fellow learners


Lord said Samsaara is Duhkhaalayam and Asaasvata. It has sorrow or grief and these are temporary, not permanet. A poet Kulasekhara (2000 yr old) describes :
BHAVAJALADHIGATAANAAM DVAMDVA VAATAA HATAANAAM SUTA DUHITRU KALATRA TRAANA BHAARAARDITAANAAM VISHAMA VISHAYA TOYE MAJJATAAM APLAVAANAAM BHAVATUM EKO VISHNU POTO NARAANAAM.


tHE DUHKHA OF THIS WORLD (SAMSAARA) is not an inherent quality of the world or samsaara. Duhkha is created by us, not by God. God has created atoms and neutrons protons hydrogen uranium etc. But who created atom bomb, nuclear bomb, RDX etc. You attribute it God, then you are foll. Man created this destructive Duhkhaalaya.


If you note this simple truth that World is created by the Lord and whatever Duhkha in it is created by Manava from his Jealousy, Moha, LObha nad of course Kama, then your question Why God created Duhkhaalaya world is irrelevant and meaningless and even frivolous.
krishna

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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 12:39 am

aum

Why is this World, Filled with Sorrow (Dukhaalai) ?

vyasjee's question is pithy........... short and sharp

let the answer , too, be pithy .............. short and piercing ..........

piercing through the obdurate Mind ........... to dwell in the heart !!!

and, the answer is ..............." ask not the world ............ ask yourself !

the world is responsible for its own Misery, ........... and you............. yours !!! "

AUM


PS narinder reads the words of the wise .............. penned in joy in this forum, by the wise and much rejoicing there is , the joy in the heart !

thank you ...........all............ in Love, we become One with the ONE ......
in Joy, we become One with the ONE !!!

AUM

narinder


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Date: Tue May 18, 2010 12:26 am
Dear Sir,
I would beg to differ from this idea. We are here not out of our choice and what ever we are blessed with is and should be considered as Prabhu Prasadam. If we are sent here to experience the world and develop our wisdom than how it can be considered as a Dukhalayam. It can occurr to mind only if we are escaping from this world and reality. Believe me it is a beautiful world and should be seen with positive attitude only and who are we to call his creation as home of sorrows? Just my views.

Hari Om
R.K.Raina
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Date: Mon May 17, 2010 1:09 pm
Dear Ones, Namaste!
Basudebji, I am very satisfied with your answer, have always appreciated them!
This is to respond to Agrasenji's question below about apparent anomaly in Swamiji's Statement!
"There is nothing else but God" means that This Existence before us is Absolute, Undivided, Harmonious, appearing to us as different objects, is exactly what we call God! It is, as though, the Invisible Existence is Visible as Galaxies, Planets, Earth, Mountains, Oceans, forests, Animals, Humans, and anything one can think of! So, we as well as Swamiji and Realized ones see the same world of objects, but there is a difference in dealing with them as they see appearances being disguises God is wearing and hence act for the benefits of all! Their acts come from Truth they have experienced!
How do we know it is One Existence? Before any object is given a name, it already IS, but we fail to notice this IS-ness due to attachment/aversion to such an object! We think it is really a separate object, say, a mountain, or a dog, because we grew up learning them with names and never inquired Reality behind names!
Also as dog, or mountain or any named object, it disappears in time-space but the One Existence or the Isness of such an object continues as other forms, names, attributes etc. The Existence is Immortal, God! It is to be noted that such perishable objects can also be subtle like man-kind's thoughts, beliefs, tendencies, generosity, cruelty, etc as Imprints/Karma on Consciousness/Existence!
Why Swamiji says we need to act with dog as dog and human as human even as they all are God?
Obviously in daily life we act differently towards sisters, mothers, spouses, fathers, brothers, friends, etc..as it is a practical requirements based on their roles. This promotes harmony among various appearances of same God, never forgetting that each appearance is God playing a role! To the extent we disregard this, we act unjustly, and blame God!
Leela is possible only upon Realization that everything we call world is God, the One Existence and therefore subject to our Reverence, and appropriate behavior!
Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

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Date: Mon May 17, 2010 12:48 pm
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

I like the framing by Brother Vyas, ' Why is this World'....... I will try and express my intuitive thoughts on the question.

' The Vision and the Way of Vasistha':
Ch2 374-5: Even so, within every (world) many and divers other (worlds) rise, mutually unseen. All of them do not see each other even a little, like inert matter in the same heap, and like grains dropping down. (from the granary).
379 Since Brahman or the (Ultimate Reality) is existing everywhere, when where and in which manner anything is born, there and in that matter, one perceives it immediately, only by the power (akin to) a dream.

Essence of Yogavaasisistha Ch 8 45: Long Armed One! (Rama!) The state (or condition) of Consciousness, which has gathered or obtained a form due to ignorance (or error) and which is the seat of place, time and action is called the knower of the field, (i.e. the individual soul that experiences the body).

Ever heard of the play of consciousness?

Gitaji 15: 10 The duped do not know the soul having identified itself with the three gunas departing from, or dwelling in the body, or enjoying the objects of senses , but they, who posses the eye of wisdom behold It.

Now to those who feel that one must see things in a rational scientific way see this from Stanislav Grof's "The Cosmic Game":
'..... I have not met a single individual who has had a deep experience of the transcendental realms and continues to subscribe to the world-view of western materialistic science. This development is quite independent of the level of intelligence, type and degree of education, and professionals credentials of the individuals involved.

Finally the words of the Trappist Monk Thomas Merton: 'When we are reduced to our last extreme, there is no further evasion. The choice is a terrible one. It is made in the heart of darkness, but with an intuition that is unbearable in its angelic clarity: when we who have been destroyed and seem to be in hell miraculously choose GOD!'

End of the illusion!

Om... Shanti...

Mike.


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Date: Mon May 17, 2010 11:28 am

Nothing in this world can make you happy. Therein lies the answer to this question. What makes us unhappy? Attatchment to the illusory worldly things cause unhappiness. Anything which is perishibale is an illusion and the product of our imagination. The common attatchments or vasnas are sex, money and power. We can't have enough of these. When our desires are unsatisfied, we become frustrated, angry and sad. Therefore like Buddha and other yogis, we should focous on the real things in life, the things which really matter. What matters is the salvation of our Soul or Self which is the only real thing about us. It is our true identity. It was never born and will never die. It is entirely up to us whether we become a slave of our desires for illusory things which cause us to be born again and again. Or like our Saints we should decide to gain enlightenment through meditation and find out the truth of our existence and attain moksh or liberation in this life itself, with the help of a God realised Guru.
Hari Shanker Deo


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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:09 am

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Mr. Vyas, thanks for raising the question for the sake of others, am sure you already know the answer.

The world is a 'Dukhalya' only for those who are expecting and hoping to derive Sukh (pleasure) from the world, "Aasha is param dukham" (Hoping for happiness from the world is surely the main source of suffering). Yes, the world can certainly give fleeting pleasures, most seem to be content with it for the time being till they get pain along the way but they still keep searching. They feel O' this time they got fooled, they know better now, it will not happen again. But to their dismay it happens again and again. The individual is unwilling to learn from even the hard blows, his own life experiences are giving hard core messages but the process goes on, the cycle of birth and death continues. They look at others who appear to be happy but when they find out more about them, they too are complaining.

To the disappointment of a common man he is looking for happiness from the world, he fails to get convinced that the world does not have the capability of providing permanent happiness. How can Atma-sukh can be had from Prakriti when the real nature is Chetan (conscious), how can the hungry man get satisfied when someone tying Chapaties on his back.

God did not make the world "Dukhalya", he only provided enough things for all His children to be happy, only condition is when these items are utilized properly used and are not considered one's own. It is people who indulge in Bhoga and Sangrah. Our own Prarabhda provides the situation our mind set determines what we do with it. Man projects his own world according to his mind set (Gitaji 7- 5), The world is neither good or bad, it is up to us what we make of it.

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:14 am
Shree Parmatmane Namah

Respected Friends, Swamiji has said, "Besides that one Paramatma, thee is not else that has ever come into existence!" (Manavmaatre Kalyaan ke liye pg 221). then where has the world come from? What is this world not Paramatma? Now call Paramatma either "Dukhaalaya" (abode of sorrow) or "Sukhaalay" (filled with happiness and joy), it is only Paramatma. Now if yo do not believe, then it is your wish.
Vineet
Sadhak

This entire creation and this life and anything else, whatever you may call it, if it is not Paramatma then what is it? Please tell me. There is great yearning, a deep anguish to know.

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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:11 am
Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
If we pursue the three gates to hell , ( Lust, Anger, Greed ), then our lives will be Dukhalayam ,( Bhagavad Gita 16, 21).
But if we spend our lives in devotional service , then our lives will be peaceful and spiritually uplifting.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Samo ham sarva bhuteshu,
Na me dveshyo sti na priyah,
Ye bhajanti tu mam bhaktyam,
Ayi te teshu capy aham. "
( Gitaji 9, 29)
Which means,
' I envy none, nor I am partial to any one. I am equal to all. Who ever renders service unto Me with devotion, is a friend, is in Me and I am also in him. '

Lord Krishna says this material world is Dukhalayam and Asaswatam, (Gitaji 8,15). Materialism leads to misery.

The goal in this life should be, to attain Him. Devotional service takes us there. If we spend our lives in the pursuit of the Lord, then our lives will be full of happiness. Less materialistic we are, happier and peaceful we will be.
Thank You.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:15 am
Dear Vyasji, and Sadhakas, Namaste!
With lot of respects for Vyasji, who has served many of us over the years through his insightful postings, I submit the following answer:
Swamiji has already given the answer in first paragraph below which he elaborates in the subsequent ones!
I need not say further, however, it is nice to deliberate this point when invited by Vyasji!
I humbly submit that world is not made Dukhalayam by Paramatma - God, even as it feels like it due to our own ignorance. If it was made sorrowful by God, no one will be free of sorrow, but that is not the case! Saints and Sages and our own Swamiji are examples of being free!
The world in itself is neither Dukhalayam nor Sukhalayam unless we make it so by getting hurt by it!
The root ignorance is to consider this organism of body-mind as my real self, and hence by implications, everything else becomes "not-me" for me. This belief(and its non-verified belief only) leads me to feel lacking within myself being limited, causes desire to arise for fulfillment through objects including people, followed by attachments and aversions to objects and people believing they are separate from me, and we know the rest of the story of Dukhalayam as you point out!
If we were to truly realize by either Gyan, Devotion or Self-less service to so-called others, as pointed out in Gita, that we are, afterall, not such a separate person, but are complete within the way we are, Atman, then we don't lack and therefore, no personal desires, and therefore, no attachment nor aversion to anything and the world becomes playground for us to celebrate with same objects and people, Sukhalayam, or as you often quote "chetan amal sahaj sukh rashi!"
If only I knew to be a bead in the necklace(Mala) of God, losing my individuality as an independent bead and yet remain as bead but move in harmony with other beads in the Mala that Vasudeva IS, I cannot go wrong!
Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 10:38 am
Dear Sadaks & Sri Vyasji,
This world is Karma Boomi. Those who have bundles of Vasanas (In form of Sins) have to come here and undergo sorrow (Dukha). As for as animals are concerned they silently, without cursing anyone, without knowing to point out other mistakes even while they are killed, they raise to Human level. But it is pity for humans that pleasures, desires lead them to Vasanas, to put one in cycle of Birth and deaths. But ultimately few, after going through that cycle, get Sat Sang, Bakthi and elevate or liberate. If there is no Dukha, it is Indra Lok. Sastras say one who done ample service, like Daana Dharam, building hospitals, Etc go to Indra Lok. There they spend very long period (1000 of years) of ONLY happiness, and pleasures and nearly after, say 3000 years, they are brought to the cloud level on earth and sent through rain drop which goes to seed level, which in turn as food goes into male to form sperms, which goes to a woman to conceive and that JEEVA again back to same platform of earth- Mother-father-brother-sister- etc. Again Dukha. Earth is for that. Saints realized that and opted to remain in silence abandoning everything. Buddha- Christ- 63 Nayanmars- !2 Alwars- nearly 350 Bakthas. Naradhji for a simple question put to Sri Vishnu, "Why the earth is going away from Bakthi- People are becoming bad". Naradhji was sent to earth for that question as Sant Purander Doss. Sri Mahalakshmi asked Sri Vishnu, "I like that saint Visnuchitar (Later called as Peria Alwar- Head of saints)the way he is making garland with utmost devotion for your idol. SHE was sent to earth as Sri ANDAL who gave the people 30 Slokas of great importance on Sri Krishna called "THRUPAAVAI''. HER story was of recent times and worth knowing. It was during Palava Kings period. HER statue is in many temples of South India. Adi Sankara sang the same what SRI VASJI asked in Vivekachdamani as earth is DUKHA DOSHANA DHARSHANAM. SRI Vyasji please do not look towards earth, look towards Bagavan only. Great Saint Bharatha Yogi in Srimath Bagavath, just a simple and decent desire to rare a deer, YOU know the rest my Pandit. One birth for him as deer and next as Jada Bharat. One advantage on this earth is, anything can attain salvation with help of Sat Sangh. Examples: As a deer (Jada Bharat) was born in Ashram, where he was in constant vibration of Mantras, yagnas, Poojas Etc. This help him to be born with KNOWLEDGE on Sat. An ant, an elephant, a snake, a parrot, a begger went to Vaikunt by Sat Sangh Mahima. Why so much, the plantain trees under which Sant Jaidev sang Srimath Bagavath for few days, went to Vaikunt before him. Allah says (By his hand) nothing is there- empty yourself. Christ says,'' Empty theyself I shall fill in" . Sri Krishna says, "Surrender to me and I shall give you Mukthi" Here surrender meant leave everything to HIM and you become empty. Karn was holding Dharma Puniya in his account. Only on releasing it to Bagavan Sri Krishna he went to abode. From 13 other worlds everyone has to go through this earth to liberation. So make our times most useful.
Namaste
B.Sathyanarayan
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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 11:02 am
Aadarniy Swamiji,

In response to the following question, Swami Ramsukhdaji says that all is VASUDEVA, yet
in paragraph four it states as follows:-

All this does not mean that your behavior has to be the same to all. That is insane, rather it will lead to one's downfall if you treat a dog, the same as a human being. Relating in this world, is dependent on the external situations. Therefore the root of the matter is that, what we see is different depending on how we see the situation. If you are only seeing it outwardly, where you are looking at the perishable, then you will see sorrow. One is inward view, and the other is outward view; one is selfish view and the other is intent of serving.


Please clarify this anomaly in his statement. That means that we have to deal with different people differently according to the circumstances, which is what a common man does! Then how can we also consider a dog Vasudeva while we treat him differently!

agrasen
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Date: Sun May 16, 2010 3:01 pm

The Question is wrong. Paramatma has not created the World or the entire creation as Dukhayam. The entire creation including the World and including Paramatma is completely neutral of Sukham and Dukham. But he has created in human minds desires for Worldly pleasures and satisfaction and he has also created in human hearts and minds sorrows from non-satisfaction of desires. So, the question could as best be why has Paramatma has created the Guna of feeling of sadness or sorrow.?
The answer to this question is answered by another question: what would have happened if the human beings did not have a guna of feeling sorrow? The human beings would not have been human beings. The stars, the sun, the planets, rivers, the waters, the mountains, the coal and gold extracted from mines and the stones do not have the feeling of sorrow. Clearly they do not have pleasures or happiness either. This is because they do not have desire or ego. Thus, if desires, ego, perception of pleasures and pains, happiness and sorrows were not to be in human beings, human beings would not have been created in the first place.
So, the question boils down to why did the Paramatma create human beings? But why deal with this partial question? Why not better ask why did Paramatma create any thing at all - whether human beings or stones or stars? If we have answer to this basic, primary question, that would automatically address the small insignificant question of why he created sorrows? But as per Gita, Paramatma, the creator is nothing but the entire creation and creative and destructive process. Gita says Paramatma is infinite, never born, never died, never created, indestructible and always in extence. So, the Paramtamta, being the Creation itself has always , ceasely existed. It did not have to be created. It has all been there always whether in explicit form or implict. If everything was there implicit in creation, even the feeling of sorrow existed all the time: it became explicit when some elements of the Universe in the continuous transformation process gave rise to some forms called human beings and some feelings in them called sorrow. These are transient phenimenon as is daylight and night or stars which after billions of years disintegrates into infinite pieces or sound waves tranforms in to light waves, So the real question is why is the process of transformation that goes on in the universe creates such things as sorrows and happiness? The answer is simple: to create a transient phenomenon like human beings just as a transient phenonmenon of stars are created. Just as the Sum just happened in the continous transformation process, so did human beings and their feeling of sorrows just happened/ happens. There is no reason to rationalise the appearance of certain transient phenomenon in the transformation process. The only scientific answer would be to relate to certain other phenonmenon that prceded this phenomenon.
There are poets who had ultimately concluded that they want to return to this world birth after birth to experience the beauti of the pleasues and pains , the happiness and the sorrows of human life. How does it matter if many human beings feel that the World is a home for sorrows. There are others who would come to conclusion that the World is a home of beautiful things including sorrows. Some poet said saddest thought are so sweet. So, the answer is : the World is a home for sorrows because it had to be made a home for sweet things as well as so many other things like zealousy, honesty, violence. No one will be satisfied with my long answer. The question actually does not arise: as per Gita sorrows are unreal - they do not exist as do many other things. Yoga is the only but the most difficult method to realize this.
Basudeb Sen
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Shree Hari Ram Ram

PLEASE SEE ONE OF THE POSTINGS FROM SWAMIJI'S DISCOURSES -

Question: On one hand "All is God" (Vasudeva Sarvam) and on the other hand, the "World filled with Sorrow" (Dukhaalai). Which are we to understand ?

Answer: When we desires happiness from the World, then there is nothing but sorrow (dukhaalai). We will get nothing from the World, but sorrow. But when our intention is only to serve the World, then everything is God (Vasudeva Sarvam). When we have no selfish desires, and when the only feeling wihin is to serve others, then we will see only "All is God" (Vasudeva Sarvam).

There is another view. There is an outward perspective and an inner perspective. The inner perspective is only God (Vasudeva), whereas the outer view is the sorrow-filled world (dukhaalai). One who sees the outward form, i.e. beauty etc. is focused on the external view. Whereas one who is looking at the inner view, is seeing equanimity (samtaah) . Just like all gold jewellery appears different in shape and form, however inwardly, it is only gold. Similarly seeing towards the inner sentiments, looking at everything from it's very essence, one sees only God. Equanimity is God. When mind is established in equanimity, one gains victory over the world. "Panditaah samdarshinah."

Most people see the outward, but those who see the essence, see equanimity (samdarshinah), where everything is seen as God's Essence. Out attention is on the world, and therefore we see the world and it's sorrows, but from inside it is consciousness. One who sees the essence, sees the essence of God in all.

All this does not mean that your behavior has to be the same to all. That is insane, rather it will lead to one's downfall if you treat a dog, the same as a human being. Relating in this world, is dependent on the external situations. Therefore the root of the matter is that, what we see is different depending on how we see the situation. If you are only seeing it outwardly, where you are looking at the perishable, then you will see sorrow. One is inward view, and the other is outward view; one is selfish view and the other is intent of serving.

In reality, there is only one essence, essential element (tattva). That essence is only God "Vasudeva". The outward is false and unreal, as it is perishable. Those who pay attention to the perishable, see the world as filled with sorrow (dukhaalai). Whereas, those who see the Essence, see the essence of God. (to be continued)

From Discources in Hindi on February 13th, 1991 at 5:00 am by Swami Ramsukhdasji

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